Relevant links:

Unpacking Weight Science: www.UnpackingWeightScience.com

Health Not Diets (resources for health professionals in the Non-Diet Approach): www.healthnotdiets.com

Twitter and Instagram: @FionaWiller

Facebook: HealthNotDiets

Transcript – thank you Marie!

Hello and welcome to this week’s podcast. So we are focusing on Health At Every Size at the moment and today you’ll hear a conversation that I had with a lady called Fiona Willer. Fiona is in Australia and she has got tons of qualifications, things like advanced accredited practising dietitian, Australian Independent dietitian nutritionist, she has got a whole list of those and I’m going to link to her bio so you can see all of those. But really what I think is the more important thing is that Fiona’s mission is to empower health professionals to adopt weight neutral practise. Also supporting them in doing so. What we talk about in this podcast, is we talk about Health At Every Size what it is and what it isn’t. But we also get into some nitty gritty into practitioners who are advertising or saying that they practise Health At Every Size and then maybe not quite doing so or even not quite understanding how they’re not quite doing so.

So really good podcast for you to listen to if you know that you maybe need a dietitian or know that you need a therapist and you want to work with somebody who adopts Health At Every Size philosophy and principles because you know that’s what you need, how to look at somebody is saying these things, are they actually doing those things and how to work that out. I think that this a bit of a tweaky one for some people listening, this might deliver a few home truths that might help them look at what they’re doing if they are a practitioner and maybe have a think about so I’m always in favour of having those conversations that might be a little difficult to listen to and might be a little bit difficult to understand but are actually very important in this field. In this field definitely in terms of treatment. So Fiona Willer, I’m just going to get on with the conversation. Here’s Fiona:

Oh you may or may not hear at some stage in this interview a small little barky dog sound (laughs) If you do hear it, just ignore it.

Fiona: OK so I am a advance accredited practising dietitian in Australia and my work at the moment is PHD research into Health At Every Size and other weight neutral lifestyle approaches in the dietetics profession. And also the impact that that philosophy has on peoples lifestyle behaviours. So that my research world and then my work world is really translating weight science and weight neutral science to other health professionals so I do lots of professional development workshops for dietitians and psychologists and doctors and other health and medical and fitness professionals. Also I’m quite active at social media, breaking down the scientific method when it’s regarding weight basically. Helping to see the devil in the details and weight bias is pervasive in all the research as well as not just in society.

T: What is the, if you could tell me one thing, the one message that comes through from that, what would that be? What’s the major stuff that comes through?

F: That really to be the best kind of health professionals that we can be we need to know our own biases and we need to know the biases of the research and so that’s really my big thrust these days is to try to unpack that for people. Help people unpack that.

T: What do you think is one of the, when you say you help people unpack that, what is something that is either a really common misconception or something they might have to work through?

F: So there’s this perception that research paper are always 100% objective and trustworthy out there. Except a research paper is just a piece of persuasive writing like almost any other kind of writing that humans do. So unpacking the way that research works is really important so showing people not to trust the conclusions sections, they’ve got to wade into the results and actually know what they are doing in those fields.

T: Yes and it’s that being able to look at something and not take it at face value I guess.

F: Yes that’s it and see where the sections that the authors can get really creative in and they are the ones that people tend to read instead of reading what they found.

T: I bet you must go crazy about all this nutrition science that comes out, because that stuff is whack.

F: It just kills me and even most recently I was reading a paper by a colleague of mine who does research in diet quality and she is a weight centric researcher, very much so and I was reading her paper and her paper found that women, adult women in larger bodies who ate fruit and veggies in the highest categories of fruit and veggie intake tended to be the cheapest on the health service. So our Medicare paid out less money for claims for people in that category. So I’m like excellent, that’s fabulous except literally the next paragraph after they’ve explained that is a paragraph saying but they maybe eating less nutritional food as well as the fruit and veg. And I thought that’s actually completely unnecessary because your own research has shown that it’s not relevant. You’ve found this association independent of any of the other stuff and it completely conjecture not actually based on any finding at all. It just kills me.

T: I’m sure it does. But then people read it and they believe it and they are quoting it and it’s off.

F: It’s peer reviewed, it’s in a good journal so there have been at least another 3-4 sets of eyes who if it was any other field would have gone, you’ve just made that up potentially. You can’t put it in there you need to keep in on track but because it’s obesity in inverted commas we just get away with reinforcing these old tropes about these assumptions around the way people live.

T: And there are many things like that aren’t there? That are actually assumptions that are not proven but because they’ve been around so long they are just taken for granted to be true. They’re not questioned because they’ve been around for so long.

F: Literally all of the stereotypical assumptions that people have about people who live in larger bodies are actually the opposite in real life.

T: Like assumptions like that person just must eat so much food is often the opposite is true.

F: That’s it, we know that the overlap between the sorts of energy requirements across the weight spectrum, there is a huge amount of variation. So there are people in small bodies who are eating more than people in larger bodies. There is a lot of overlap and we also know that typically human populations have been found to not eat in a way that’s consistent with national guidelines but it’s consistent along all of the BMI bands as well. So people in smaller bodies eat to the same degree of not to the guidelines as people in larger bodies except the only headlines that we get are people in larger in bodies not eating to the guidelines.

T: And it drives me crazy because I’m a in a pretty average sized body but I eat all of the things that I am told by guidelines that I shouldn’t eat. I eat high fat diet and it’s crisps and chocolate and Wendy’s, I love Wendy’s but nobody would look at me and make that assumption about me.

F: And point the finger yeah, and I think the thing is that people in smaller bodies who do eat in varied ways, so not to the guidelines I think they assume that people in larger bodies in their minds must be doing worse than them. So they must be really overdoing it, but that’s actually not what is actually happening out there. Everyone is eating equally as interesting a diet.

T: And often I think what those of us that work in this field of eating disorders often find that people in larger bodies are restricting heavily.

F: Yes exactly

T: Which nobody believes me when I say that, they look at me like I’m crazy.

F: Well again it’s the assumption that the food that people eat must be self evident in the shape of the body that they live. It’s total bunk.

T: Right, which leads us on to Health At Every Size okay so Health At Every Size well that’s a term that I’d love you to actually tell me your definition of because I know that people get a little like what does this actually mean. But what we really want to talk about today is Health At Every Size and what a true Health At Every Size practitioner should look like and what to look for.

F: Yes so my definition at Health At Every Size is informed by the Health At Every Size principles that ASDA holds and holds the trademark for. In my mind because I have to use it both for in a research sense as well as in a communication sense with the public. So the way that I usually explain it is, that Health At Every Size is a philosophy and if we think about philosophical laws the highest philosophical law in Health At Every Size is this principle of body autonomy so the power of you to chose for yourself the degree that you want to focus on your own health and the degree that you want to make any changes to your lifestyle.

So that is the sort of one law to rule them all. And then coming under that is this notion that size acceptance so no matter what shape or size your body is, you are under no moral, ethical or health obligation to try to change that. And to instead embrace what you have in whatever way you feel fit and if that involves food and movement and any other sort of behaviour or thought patterns that enhance your life then that is what it’s for. So that’s really Health At Every Size.

T: And so how does that, if a person practises, they might be a dietitian or a therapist and they say Health At Every Size well first of all do they actually have to be certified in anything to be able to say that?

F: There are a few certification programs for example there is an intuitive eating certification and another certification from a group called Be Nourished both of those are very good but you don’t technically have to have any sort of certification. However if you use the term HAES or Health At Every Size in a way that isn’t with consistent with those philosophical principles then the Association for Size Diversity and Health in the US can send you a Cease and Desist eventually  because you’re not using the term the definition that they have legally protected it for. In Australia we have been lucky enough, it is a difficult process but we’ve just trademarked the term down here in Australia so there are protections in Australia as well.

T: So greater protections than there might be in other parts of the world.

F: Yes so the Association for Size Diversity and Health although it’s an international organisation the trademark is a national trademark for the US and so there’s less, they could still send a letter but there is less ability for legal recourse in other countries. Although we can do it now in Australia because we’ve just had the trademark through.

T: Wow OK, so is that something that you’re quite excited about?

F: Well I can’t see us being very litigious but it is a protection because there are lots of people who want to shoot down Health At Every Size philosophy because they think it’s something that essentially that it isn’t, they’ve got these misconceptions about the philosophy and also other who want to appropriate the term in order to market their services that may or may not be consistent with the principles.

T: Could we just start with the first one that you mention there? That people who want to shoot it down and maybe explain for anybody who might not understand why that might be and what the most common complaints are?

F: Yes so we’ve got a real problem with people misconstruing the phrase Health At Every Size to mean healthy at every size because they think that what we are claiming is that health does not exist as a thing. That we’ve taken any sort of qualitative differences in health and quality of life out of it. Does that make sense? And they say that some people are not healthy, so you can’t say that everyone is healthy at every size. So OK, well that’s because you’ve made no effort to actually learn what the actual thing actually is. And the problem is so big that we have had for years a problem keeping the Wikipedia for Health At Every Size actually accurate because there are Wikipedia editor trolls who change back any changes that we make to the page.

T: How annoying!

F: And the notes behind the scenes, you see the nice pretty front facing but in the Wikipedia editor, the notes behind there are constant squabbles going on about what’s on in there. It’s a real target for concerned trolls and other sorts of toxic internet people I guess who sit there to try and control things that are countercultural.

(laughs)

T: Sounds like a fun time, behind the scenes at Wikipedia!

F: I know, well this year, the next 12 months our membership cycle of HAES Australia and ASDA I’m going to really try to flagship a more consistent effort to fix it because there has been, people have tried really hard to change it and get it changed and then it’s gone straight back so it’s been really frustrating. But I think if we can do that it will make a big difference to the public perception, so if they are wondering what it is and going there then we are lost.

T: And that’s a lot of people, that’s actually considered as one of the most reliable sources.

F: Precisely but it’s not it’s a toxic pit of wrong right now.

(laughing)

T: So Wikipedia toxic pit of wrong!

F: For that particular entry it sucks.

T: For that entry, toxic pit of wrong, I like that! OK and so the second part then about practitioners?

F: Yes, right so when people first learn about HAES and size acceptance and even maybe about body positivity, it sounds fabulous, it sounds empowering it’s the usual female empowerment melody essentially. And it’s very attractive, mindful eating too because it’s such an instantly gratifying process. So these things make it a magnet for people who are looking for something different essentially, however and you would have experienced this as well.

You first hear about it, then you get a little bit more and a little bit more and it’s a bit like peeling back layers of an onion and you can’t do the whole thing at once. It’s not like you can go from a weight centric perspective that you’ve always had, you’re literally conditioned throughout your entire life to have this weight centric perspective. And then hear about Health At Every Size or Intuitive Eating or body positivity and go…oh I get it, bang. You’re very unlikely to be able to do that unless you have had struggles yourself in a larger body and have been through all the things, so that it’s self evident for what it actually is. If you haven’t had that whole life process yourself it’s hard to actually get it. So part of the consequence of that is that people who work in the wellness space, health coaching or even as health professionals go oh yes, this sounds good and I reckon is attractive because I’m attracted to it, I’m going to start putting that on my mast head but have it there, HAES or weight neutral stuff, size acceptance services sitting above or below weight management as an entry for their services and it’s not really consistent.

T: No, it’s not consistent at all.

F: It isn’t and anyone who’s doing that from the perspective of someone who is completely weight neutral focused now you can not do both.

T: No but I guess that a lot of people who are themselves are relatively confused about what help they actually need, they might have heard about Health At Every Size and think that sounds actually what I need but at the same time they are always being bombarded with messages that are telling them that they need to lose weight. So they already think and have been told probably by their doctor that they need to seek weight loss services.

F: Or it would be a good thing if you were smaller and then you’ve got the cultural messages also that you’ve got more social value if you’re in a smaller body so all the forces are trying to tell them that a smaller body is a good thing. Yes, it is tricky and I think people who work in the truly weight neutral paradigm, we do want to reach those people with our service, they are the target market. The people who are still completely drenched in diet culture. You need to talk their language to some extent to get them through the door, but it’s sort of ineffective if you’re getting them through the door and then you can’t do the bait and switch either. So talking to someone and particularly on websites and advertising materials and you’re saying, I help people with weight concerns who are ready to stop dieting and we take a weight neutral framework, that is accurate marketing as opposed to someone who wants to take a weight neutral framework but whose advertising as they do HAES for weight loss or weight management including Health At Every Size. That’s double talk.

T: Do you think that people who do that, I’ve seen it plenty of times myself, do you think that people who do that are unaware of what they are doing, or do you think they are just trying to have it all?

F: I think both. I think people who see it as, so they think HAES is another skill I can do that, I’ll just put it on my list of stuff and that’s obviously very naïve way of thinking about things because you can’t really do HAES stuff unless you’ve interrogated your own personal weight bias. What baggage you bring into the room that you’re projecting onto people, unconsciously. So yeah I think they don’t know any better because you don’t know any better until you are challenged over these things.

T: Right. And it takes such, there is a lot of education that goes into developing the consistency that one needs to develop with these types of messages and actually truly understand it, rather than just thinking this is cool and this might attract people, I should do this.

F: Yes I mean the body positivity thing there is a lot more public awareness of that, and there are a lot more people out there that are practising from what they are saying is a body positive framework who have never even heard of Health At Every Size. It exists separately from some extent from HAES, a lot of my colleagues are quite angry about that appropriation of body positivity to the thin, Instagram young woman sort of grouping. But I think body positivity as a concept is a gateway drug to HAES and I’m OK with that. The horse has bolted in terms of the messaging of body positivity we’ve got this sort of watered down, not really body positive version of body positivity all the way to the full intersectional feminist social justice voices in the field.

T: Yes

F: But the message can not be controlled now. We have to continue to speak the truth of it but it’s well beyond what we can control. At least for Health At Every Size and again with the ownership of that phrase to some extent we’ve got a bit more control of the definition of that phrase.

T: Right, nobody owns body positivity.

F: No, it’s gone it belongs to the masses now.

T: It’s always that woman who’s smiling and eating a salad and being very positive about her body.

F: Laughing at lettuce.

T: (laughs) She’s out there, we can’t get rid of her.

F: No because they don’t know what they don’t know. They are absolutely unconsciously incompetent.

T: Yes and I do think that maybe somebody should take ownership of body positivity. I do get that it can be a selling point for weight loss or restrictive eating practises

F: It would be good, the trouble is particularly from someone who has been in trademark law territory recently, once the phrase is used in common vernacular you can’t get it back. Yes and so the argument they use is that people would use it accidentally without knowing the meaning and so no you can’t trademark it. So I do think it’s gone. I mean there are people with body positive and body positivity in their business name and they are doing great work but you only have to look at the bopo hashtag on Instagram to realise that, yeah, it’s a drop in the bucket of the number of people using that phrase now.

T: So with people, back to practitioners who may be knowingly or unknowingly using a HAES terminology and also advertising or promoting they are or would focus on weight loss, other than that’s just irritating for people who have put a lot of work into the field and know what it’s about, other than being than irritating how can that actually be potentially harmful or not ideal for somebody who is maybe confused and trying to look for help.

F: So the big risk is if you’ve got somebody coming to a service with weight concern to the degree that they are so upset about it that they want to pay someone to help them get rid of it. And they think that the problem is weight, but they also like the idea of not dieting because they’ve been on diets a lot and they don’t like them. They want something different, so if you’ve got that person there and they are being told that Health At Every Size means essentially to eat mindfully and you’ll lose weight because you wont be binging any more then that’s wrong. So you get they are being pitched this Health At Every Size idea and looking at some of the research around it and still expecting weight loss, then it’s just a diet it’s just a Health At Every Size style mindful eating style diet. So it’s a massive missed opportunity for change for that person and you end up with only superficial working going on for both the clinician and the client.

T: And then I imagine if that doesn’t work then that client goes away thinking I’ve tried Health At Every Size and it didn’t work.

F: Yes, I mean there are bloggers out there who are doing exactly that, they tried Health At Every Size for 3 months and it didn’t work because they thought the outcome was going to be weight loss and so they’ve gone on to diet again or have barbaric surgery or other more extreme methods of weight control. I find that very disappointing because they could have a sliding doors moment. It could have been very different for them.

T: Yes it’s very frustrating isn’t it? When you know OK that could have been different. That didn’t have to be that way, it’s just not presented right.

F: That’s it and it isn’t for everyone the Health At Every Size and weight neutral approaches are fabulous for people at the point where they are really motivated to adopt that and do lots of work on their internalised bias. If they are not there then Health At Every Size is not for them at that moment.

T: Right

F: Because it’s not like a vaccination that we can give to everyone that’s going to work. It’s there for people who need it, we do need weigh neutral rhetoric to take over our public health spaces that is for sure because at the moment the anti obesity sentiment is entrenching weight prejudice and is increasing people self stigma big style. So we need that from a massive public health perspective needs to take the focus off weight and put it back on potentially things that enhance the lives on the population. That the public health messaging is meant to be for. But at a one on one level it’s not going to be effective unless that person is motivated to do the work.

T: Right and for most people because that message of this is how one loses weight is to go on a diet is so, it’s just there from the beginning so most people have to cycle through so many stages of that before they actually get to the point where they understand this is not working and I’m willing to try something that’s radically different from that.

F: Exactly. Like in Australia our national medical research council released a level A evidence statement saying behavioural weight losses will return by 2 to 5 years for most people. Level A. So as certain as smoking causes cancer that is the strength of that relationship. People will lose the weight and it will come back. So that’s one arm of it and then the government has got massive anti obesity campaigns going on. So one hand doesn’t know what the other hand is doing. Just drives me utterly insane.

T: Then don’t you find people arguing, OK but the reason people gain weight back is that old famous term lack of willpower?

F: Literally 95% of people have what they deem lack of willpower then actually that’s humaning. That’s a human thing that’s happening. It’s not failure of the individuals to do things.

T: And seriously? 2-3 years? That’s still willpower. That’s a long time to keep something up!

F: Right, exactly. But even then people who continue to do the things that they are meant to do on a diet experience weight regain because of all the incredibly strong biological processes trying to maintain that higher body weight.

T: Absolutely, so fighting your own biology for 2 or 3 years. And for most people it’s not even that, it’s fighting their own biology for a lifetime.

F: Yes, that’s the expectation particularly if medical professionals were honest what they are saying when they expect someone to lose weight and keep it off is that they completely change and curtail social life, quality of life curtail all of these things just in order to keep one number lower and completely ignore the benefits to be had by doing other thing which are much more enjoyable.

T: It’s all bringing it back to that number which as many people have begun to recognise is not an indication of actual health.

F: It’s not an indication of anything except gravity really.

T: I was at the doctors for an appointment last week and you know how the nurse comes to get you and then they weigh you? I didn’t have a problem with being weighed, it just doesn’t bother me I’m just like fine. But then I asked her what does this tell you and she kind of couldn’t tell me (laughs) she said oh we just do it.

F: We do it, yeah. There are so many things like that in medicine they are just historical routine that happen and not actually based on outcomes and they are not scrutinised either. It’s just assumed that they are things that you do.

T: Well some of them are scrutinised like BMI, there’s been plenty to show that it shows nothing and actually the guy that invented it says this doesn’t actually give any meaningful information. And yet, it’s still used.

F: I did a podcast on the development of the BMI just within the last few months I had read histories before. But when you are actually having to produce something you do look into it very deeply to make sure that you’ve got the right idea about it. Just incredible how just the literally handful of powerful men completely derailed the scientific evidence because of their own prejudices against fat. It’s just amazing.

T: It is incredible.

F: Heartbreaking, but think about the way the world was during the 50s, 60s, 70s this is a time before the internet, it’s a time before powerful statistical computing existed so we are talking about literally pen and paper stats and the narrative that was being led by these men was one that could permeate because they had the voice in the medical journals that people read and there was limited communication opportunities for people to have a dissenting view.

T: I guess that’s privilege isn’t it?

F: They would not have even known the word back then. But that is exactly what it is

T: No but as you said, there are many things that I just think, you couldn’t make this shit up. It’s incredible that that’s what we’re dealing with. And it’s just, BMI is just one example where it’s absolutely everywhere. You can’t get away from it. But then so is the obesity crisis.

F: Yes

T: You just can’t get away from that term.

F: Right, and even now we’ve got some anti obesity researchers trying to redefine the term obesity to just people who are in larger bodies who are suffering some sort of consequences of that. Which acknowledges that not every human with a BMI over 30 is actually medically unwell. Which is a good start but the thing again, it’s a bit like body positivity, the horse has freaking bolted. You are going to have 40, 50,60 years of medical and health research papers who are using one definition and then some groups using this alternative term, I think you need another name. If you’re going to do that then you need another name because obesity as a term has gone. There is no redefining it here, there’s only using it less. It’s meaning is set in stone.

T: And maybe hopefully if we could just come up with, there could be another term and maybe another meaning and then maybe people would forget about it at some point.

F: It is an interesting thing. You’d certainly need to look at the relationships in terms of risks but if they’re not controlled for health behaviours, if they are not controlled for self stigma, not controlled for social determinants of health then it is a pretty crap measure. But you still need to measure it so I don’t think the BMI itself is terrible, the classifications suck that’s the problem. The classifications and the judgements that come with that. But as a research measurement used as a continuous measurement, not categorical it has it’s place. It’s all these stupid judgements that we put on it that are problematic.

T: And the judgement that were never really supposed to be there I guess.

F: No and literally they are just looking at the curve going, hmm OK well that’s a round number there we’ll cut it off there. Then that’s about the same amount of digits we’ll cut the next one off there. That’s literally how it was. How the BMI categorisations were determined. It’s crazy.

T: It certainly is. So you are in Australia, it sounds like you are doing some fabulous things out there.

F: Not only me, we’ve got a really committed, I guess it’s a multi disciplinary group of HAES practitioners down here. Very motivated, we’re really getting things done, trying to educate lots of people. It’s a great group to be in.

T: Yes and so what are some of the things that you are working on?

F: So we’ve just in the last few years set up HAES Australia which is a non profit organisation down here to champion the Health At Every Size principles it’s at the moment an association for health professionals because we think that that is where the target in terms of information transfer should be down here at the moment. And we’re spending a lot of energy educating nutrition and dietetic students, psychologists, dietitians, medical professionals, there are lots of training opportunities going on and also advocacy so writing to the government when they have a new obesity commission and writing to the state government about their childhood obesity things as well. So we are really an advocacy and community building group at the moment.

T: And for people who are in Australia where can they find information on that?

F: Our website is HAESAustralia.org.au so that’s the hub but we also have a Facebook page and they can join, I would suggest regular humans who aren’t HAES practitioners should join some HAES Facebook groups which are typically international which is great, you get a real melting pot of ideas and support in those sorts of groups.

T: I can link to those in the show notes to anybody who is listening and might just want some quick links as to where you might find those groups. I highly recommend joining them, you will learn so much.

F: Yes just the vicarious learning even if you never post but reading through the different threads. That is how you peel the onion, that is how you peel back, what is challenging me? Why is that challenging me, oh look at these people who are living in a way that I couldn’t have imagined 5 years ago? But I can imagine a bit more now, it could be me one day. All of these steps are made really beautifully through this social network opportunities.

T: Yes because you can see from the posts as you said even just reading and not posting you can see other people working through things.

F: Exactly and they are sociological theories that explain that phenomenon and I’ve had to use them in my research as well. It’s a very sticky concept once people truly know what it is. You know theoretically then they can move themselves towards there if they are exposed to other humans who are going through the same or have just recently been through the same process.

T: Big group learning experiment.

F: Dissemination of ideas

T: So how can people find out more about you?

F: So my website for the training opportunities for health professionals is healthnotdiets.com and for my latest project which is unpacking weight science project where I’ve got an online course and this is for humans, normal people as well as those in the health, wellness and medical professions. There is an online course and there is also an educational podcast that they can sign up too. And the podcast comes with professional development material including a quiz so if people are in professions where they can do their own professional development hours, where they can pick their own, they can use that as hours for their credentials.

T: Brilliant, I’ll link to that in the show notes as well.

F: Great, that’s got it’s own website unpackingweightscience.com

T: Well I don’t know about you lot but I really like Fiona Willer. I thoroughly enjoyed talking to her and I could have spoken to her for hours. But then that would have made it very boring for you lot so I didn’t speak to her for hours, I just spoke to her for 40 minutes or so. I’m surly going to have her back again on the podcast so if you have any questions that you think would be good to explore with this lady then do email me at info@tabithafarrar.com. I hope that cleared up some of the Health At Every Size questions that some of you might have had. I know that, like she was saying about the Wikipedia thing it can be really messed up and different people experiences that may not actually had been what Health At Every Size experience should have been can really mar what people think about the field. So I like that there is work happening to make the term a little bit more explicit, a little bit more defined and groups coming up that are actually certifying people and making sure that then Health At Every Size is what it’s supposed to be I guess. We are going to have more focus on this in the next couple of weeks and if you have any specific questions regarding Health At Every Size then please do get in touch because I would love to hear from you. Until next time, cheerio.